Myths & Facts - Fruits and Wet Faeces

[softbillsaviary]

Hi dance4rain,

Since my reply to your question about fruits in Myth and Fact is quite lengthy, it might better to present it as topic by itself. Hope you don't mind. It will allow further discussions to be clearer , rather than have it jumbled up with answers to your other questions.

Here goes:

Puteh Food - Too Much Fruits?

I did write about this earlier but perhaps I would repeat it here as it is a very common misconception.

I believe that most forumers would agree with the logic that as birdkeepers or even if you are keeping other animals (dogs, cats, fish etc) you would try to provide the animal with food which is its natural diet. Of course now we have dog biscuits for dogs, cat food for cats and so on. But even such commercial preparation always advertise themselves on the fact that it's ingredients are very close to natural food.

The same applies to birds. Why do people take the trouble to catch grasshoppers or pay for crickets which are troublesome noisy insects, to feed their birds? Again its simply that we wish to feed our birds with the closest substitute to their natural diet.

Any experienced birdwatcher will tell you that the Mata Puteh's natural diet consist mainly of four things: nectar, fruits, grubs (and small caterpillars) and small insects (including small spiders).

Most of us will feed our Putehs with commercial pellets and supplement it with fresh fruits. The question is whether we are giving the Puteh too much fruits. The answer is simply: No.

An animal such as a bird (or any other animal except Carp) eats only what is necessary and never overeats. So you may stick a whole apple or orange inside the cage, but the Puteh will not gorge itself to death, instead it will peck only a small portion of it. The only harm is that its a waste to put an entire orange or apple in the cage. If anyone tells you that his Mata Puteh ate an entire apple in one day - its either he is joking or he is delusional.

What does it mean if my Puteh has watery faeces?

If you, the birdkeeper, has watery (or soft) faeces, then there is cause for worry; but a Puteh's faeces is expected to be watery since its natural diet consist largely of liquid & soft food - nectar and fruits. If your Puteh's faeces is hard - you should be worried.

Remember this: the Puteh's diet, apart from nectar and fruits, also comprise of small juicy insects and grubs; all of which are soft food. Squash a caterpillar and you will agree with me.

So how did this 'fact' about too much fruits come about? The old timers tend to equate their pet birds' faeces with the human variety - and that is incorrect.

If you have ever kept a finch which is a pure seed eater and supplemented with some green leafy vegetable, you would immediately notice two things - first is the finch's faeces is not watery and the second is the perch sticks are sticky. The faeces are not watery because the seeds provide lots of roughage. The perch sticks are sticky because some of the seeds are high in carbohydrates.

If you feed the Puteh with waterchestnut, its faeces will be firm/dry as noted by Sunny. I would like to add that the bird's faeces are firm/dry is simply due to the fact that waterchestnut is fibrous. Next time when you eat waterchestnuts, take time to note how it feels when you keep chewing on it for a full minute or more - the waterchestnut mash still feels solid. Compare it to say a bite of apple or papaya - it would be all mushy gooey in less than a minute. Naturally when the bird is fed with waterchestnut, you can expect with 100% certainty that its droppings will be 'dry' or firm.

(Note about papayas: The papaya fruit has laxative qualities. The most active laxative part of the fruit is the white pimply surface in the center where the seeds are found. So naturally, you will notice an increase in defaecation when you feed your Puteh with papayas.)

In the case of oranges you will actually see the orange rind in the faeces, whereas the waterchestnut fibre is more fine and hence not quite so obvious. But why is the faeces 'dry' in the case of waterchestnut and wet in the case of oranges? The answer is simply that oranges have a higher liquid content.

What about too much oranges and the Puteh's faces is yellowish wet. Wet, as I said before, is due to the high water content of the orange fruit. The colouring is due to the orange itself. The bird's digestive system will only absorb the vitamins, minerals, the fructose (sugar) and pass out the rest. The same applies to apples and papayas. In the case of apples the faeces will be brownish wet. The brown colour is due to natural discolouration of a cut apple exposed to air and in this case the apple has in fact been through an added process in the bird's digestive system which of course will be passed out brown in colour.

Too much fruits will lower the bird's 'api' is another common belief. Not true. How could that be when in its natural environment the Puteh is in constant search for fruits and nectar, its natural diet?

In fact now is the Mata Puteh's high season. The rains have started. Take a Saturday off on your won and observe them in the wild. The insects are out in full force, escpecially after the rain stops. The Mata Putehs will have a feast. The protein and calcium supplement from the insects helps them to prepare for breeding and to feed its hatchlings.

Another common belief is feeding the Puteh with too much insects, mealworms and grubs is bad. Maybe true. Insects and other such stuff are the Puteh's source of protein and calcium. Too much protein may cause some problems for the bird. Its tiny liver will not be able to cope. But as I said earlier, the Puteh eats only what is necessary, so is there any worry that it might overeat insects and such? Yes, especially when you do not provide it with enough fruits, pellets, and nectar, then the Puteh has no choice but to eat more of the insects you give it.

So why is it that the Puteh's basic diet is nectar and fruits?

If you have kept or are keeping different species of birds and if you have observed birds in the wild, you will note two basic differences in the behaviour of birds. Some birds are more active and some are less active.

(Group A) Examples of Active birds: Mata Putehs, Jambuls (and other bulbuls), finches, leaf birds
(GroupB) Examples of less Active birds: Owls, Eagles, Merboks, Tekukurs, Shrikes

The birds in group A are more active and they expend their energy quicker. They need high energy food such as nectar/pollen and fruits (which has lots of fructose). The finches, say a Grey finch, does not eat fruits (some do, if you condition them) but the finch eats far more seeds than a Merbok would in terms of their body weight ratio.

The birds in Group B are less active. Have you ever seen an owl jumping here and there or flying all over the place? Merboks are only active when they are looking for seeds, otherwise they will be happy to perch on their favourite branch and relax. Same with the tekukur. Eagles and shrikes are the same. But someone did ask me during a birding a trip why I said that the eagle is less active than a bulbul when it is common to see eagles soaring around in the sky ?

Yes, you do see eagles soaring in the sky, but they don't actually flap their wings constantly to keep flying, do they? No. They actually rely on the warm thermal air which rises up and they 'ride' or glide on the thermal. Minimal energy expended. The only effort required is when they launch themselves off a tall tree or cliff, flap their wings for a short while and catch the thermal. Then they will simply glide or ride the rising warm air.

The owl sits patiently on a perch and watches for its prey. The only time it flies is to glide down silently to pounce on the rodent and fly back to its nest or perch.

The same can be said of herons or bitterns. They stay still most of the time in the swamp and move to strike only when it spots a fish or when it wants to walk over to another place. Not much energy used.

On the other hand, the Group A birds never stay still in one spot. Even when in a cage, the Puteh and the bulbul will jump and down from one stick to another. In the wild, they are even more active. Most times you can't even get your camera up in time to aim, focus and shoot, unless it is feeding. Of course now with a digital camera, you simply don't worry about film wastage and just tembak, you are bound to get a good shot.

So, do you now realize that the birds in Group A are mostly frugivores-insectivores and the birds in Group B are carniverous? Thats why, feeding your Puteh with fruits and nectar is never bad for its health - in fact its good.

In some major fruit producing countries, such as Australia, New Zealand and in some African countries, the Mata Putehs are treated as pests as the birds spoil quite alot of the fruits in the orchards. Persimmons are an all time favourite.

Thus in the wild the Puteh's diet is naturally more nectar and fruits and less of the insects and such stuff. Nectar and fruits are widely available and the fruits and flowers don't jump, fly away like the insects or camouflage itself like the caterpillars. So the basic diet of a Puteh is fruits and nectar. Insects and grubs are supplements, which are necessary but need to be controlled.

If your merboks faeces are wet there are only two reasons - diarrhea and the other is the bird is drinking lots of water. The latter is harmless. But you might need to treat the former. Treatment - crush (better still, to blend) some tender jambu leaves, roll it into tiny balls and force feed one or two balls to the merbok. Second give it black Chinese tea.

Merboks faeces should not be wet, they are bascially seed eaters and nothing else.

However if your Puteh's faeces are dry (dry as in the case of merboks), then your Puteh has a problem. Its either not having enough fruits or its not drinking enough water. Take some time to observe your Puteh when it eats the pellets - invariably, it will sip some water after eating the pellet. Liquid - whether water or nectar or fruit juice (from the fruits its eats) is a very important part of its diet. So do expect watery droppings or at minimum, soft droppings from your Puteh.

I feed my Putehs and Jambul with nectar, slices of fruits and pellets. Fruits are apples, oranges and papayas. Their droppings are mostly wet.

They are active all the time. Sing their middle tones, buka in the morning, late afternoon, and when it rains (or when I shower). No problem. The only problem is - sometimes they sing so sweetly - I am reluctant to release them back into the aviary to join the other putehs.

Thanks for reading. Constructive comments and correction of any misrepresentation of facts are welcome.

Sam

[Md_Taufik_Rohim]

(Note about papayas: The papaya fruit has laxative qualities. The most active laxative part of the fruit is the white pimply surface in the center where the seeds are found. So naturally, you will notice an increase in defaecation when you feed your Puteh with papayas.)

Bro.."it's defecation not defaecation" just a typo error here. i hope you can edit them. apart from that it's top class explaination here done by yourself. thanx a lot. i hope the moderators here can make this thread a "sticky one" so that it will stays here for future referances.

Taufik.

[softbillsaviary]

(Note about papayas: The papaya fruit has laxative qualities. The most active laxative part of the fruit is the white pimply surface in the center where the seeds are found. So naturally, you will notice an increase in defaecation when you feed your Puteh with papayas.)

Bro.."it's defecation not defaecation" just a typo error here. i hope you can edit them. apart from that it's top class explaination here done by yourself. thanx a lot. i hope the moderators here can make this thread a "sticky one" so that it will stays here for future referances.

Taufik.

Brudder Taufik,

Defaecation is the Queen's English, defecation is American English.

Thanks,
Sam

[Tanin]

Very well said Sam... Thank you for your information. I will put this up as sticky to help other to get this information easier.

p/s: Sam, can I copy your information and put into some of my page? I actually try to promote this puteh section by creating some 'landing page' like:

http://www.zosterops.birdforum.com.my/

I hope by doing this, it would attracted more Puteh lover to discuss and share about this lovely bird with us...

[jeffreylow]

Hi Sam, that is a very good write up with all the facts and explanations. As another puteh lover, I would certainly like to take the discussion a little further with you and hopefully will bring in more opinions and inputs from others into this section of the forum.

In the context of food for puteh in captivity, there is no doubt at all that by providing it with as close a diet as that it has been eating in the wild, one will end up with a healthy bird. However, that would be the best one could achieve, i.e. having a puteh as healthy as the ones in the wild. The tradition of song bird rearing in the east goes back a very long way. Unlike our western counterparts, the goals are a little different. The westerners enjoy seeing birds in captivity living in a way as close to that of their wild cousins as possible and hence they will try to simulate conditions in captivity as such, like providing large aviaries decorated with materials of the natural habitat of the species and food that is as natural as possible. In the east, birds are kept in small cages, for the ease of bringing them out to pit their singing skills and form with others. Here is where birds like the puteh is seen in conditions that far exceed those in the wild. The form (api) and energy level all year round of a top class competitor is not just merely that of a healthy wild bird.

The oriental methods of bringing out such form and competitiveness in our putehs lacks not in results but in proper documentations and scientific explanations. Food is one very important aspect of this traditional method of keeping birds. Not only are the types of food important but also the proportions of each type of food in the total combination, i.e. the amount of dry food, the fresh fruits and live food taken by the bird on a daily basis. Here is where I would like to point out that the old timers judging the bird by its droppings is not completely a misconception or myth. It is through the droppings that a old timer expert can tell the condition of the bird and whether it is been fed correctly (i.e. according to the eastern method).

My attempt to explain all these may not be good enough to justify why the old timers think that if the putehs droppings are too watery, the bird is not in tip top condition but if you would go to a competition ground and look at the droppings of the top winning birds, it might just convince you so. Also, allow me to quote a few things you have mentioned and try to explain the other school of thinking.

Quote: I believe that most forumers would agree with the logic that as birdkeepers or even if you are keeping other animals (dogs, cats, fish etc) you would try to provide the animal with food which is its natural diet.

Explanation: The oriental method of keeping softbill songbirds is to provide it as part of its diet, a dry staple that had over time proven to be a very reliable source of sustaining the form and energy level of a competitive bird. The ingredients that goes into such a dry staple is anything but close to the natural diet of the wild birds. It would be difficult for me to provide you with a detailed breakdown in nutient values of these dry staples or any scientific explanations (as in many other things oriental) but just compare the conditions of putehs fed on this type of food as opposed to those fed on nicely packaged imported western brands of softbill food ( formulated close to the natural diet of the wild bird) and you will see what I meant. Of course, the other parts of the diet will consist of fruits and insects too.

Quote: An animal such as a bird (or any other animal except Carp) eats only what is necessary and never overeats. So you may stick a whole apple or orange inside the cage, but the Puteh will not gorge itself to death, instead it will peck only a small portion of it.

Explanation: It is true that the puteh will not gorge itself to death on the fruits, but if it likes it better than the other food that is also provided (e.g. dry food and insects), it will eat more of the fruit and tend to eat less of the others. Hence it goes against the oriental method of giving the right proportion of each type of food to the bird ( I am beginning to see some scientific logic here in providing variety for a better balanced diet). Here is where the droppings will become more watery than would be preferred because it had not been eating in the right proportions. The owners of competition birds will only provide a small slice of fruit each day and hence the droppings are not so watery. I am not disputing the fact that it is ok to have loose droppings but merely explaining why some think it is better to have the right consistency in the droppings.

Quote: So how did this 'fact' about too much fruits come about? The old timers tend to equate their pet birds' faeces with the human variety - and that is incorrect

Explanation: The old timers do not equate birds faeces with that of human as you have perceived but they actually analyse it to come to the conclusion as to whether the bird is fed correctly (according to the proven method they believed in) and if it is in good form.

Quote: If you, the birdkeeper, has watery (or soft) faeces, then there is cause for worry; but a Puteh's faeces is expected to be watery since its natural diet consist largely of liquid & soft food - nectar and fruits. If your Puteh's faeces is hard - you should be worried.

Explanation: It is true that there is no cause for alarm if the birds droppings are watery because of the fruits and food with high liquid content but if the method of keeping the birds (the top competition birds) is to provide them with a combination of diets that result in firmer stools, there is likewise nothing to worry about (I don't see any of the owners of competition winning birds being worried about the firmer stools of their birds).

As mentioned earlier, the traditional method of feeding putehs may lack logical scientific explanations but over the long period of time have proven to achieve what we see in the competition grounds and chai places - of birds in tip top condition and form. Due to the fact that the chinese way of keeping softbill songbirds are not well documented and explained, some of us may perceive certain practices as "myths or misconceptions". Certainly, food is not the only thing that goes into achieving the final goal. It is only part of the whole, proven traditional method which also includes training.

Best regards,
Jeffrey Low.

[softbillsaviary]

Dear Brudder Jeffrey Low and all Puteh brudders

Thank you for taking this topic further. Its really wonderful and refreshing to read an erudite response from a fellow Puteh brudder. It was getting rather quiet.

Before I reply to Jeffery's post, I would like to remind all brudders that this is a forum for healthy discussion and not for mudslinging. So, if I inadvertently hurt anyone's sensitivities with my writing, please forgive me. It might be due to my paucity in the English language, and never an intention to hurt.

First of all, I would like to reiterate very clearly that I am not in this hobby to breed nor to train my Putehs or any bird to be a champion. Hence some of the suggestions made by me may or may not work well for hobbyists who aim to be in the song bird competition. I have stated this many times in my past postings.

Most of the suggestions made in my earlier postings are meant for anyone who wished to maintain his Puteh in good health and hence in good form. This will ensure that your Puteh will be in form but by no means will you be guaranteed a "Champion bird' or even a second and third placing.

I do agree with Jeffery's point about a balanced diet and in fact as he had pointed out, its scientific. I don't think I mentioned that anyone should feed his Puteh purely on a diet of fruits and nectar. On the contrary I did mention that one should provide supplementary food, such as insects and grubs as these provide the Putehs with the required protein and calcium.

How is the balance to be maintained is anyone's guess. Most of the old timers who were willing to share said:

1) Fruits daily, but reduce it when you notice the Puteh's droppings to be watery

2) Main diet should still be dry pellets as it is multi-nutritional.

3) Insects: preferably large grasshoppers (about an 1.5 to 2inches), split it open for the Puteh to get at the innards. Some said the grasshoppers should be brown ones, some said it really does not matter. Insects to be fed at least once or twice a week and not more.

Really, I don't see the difference with what I have written about the general dietary habits of Putehs.

Perhaps the point of contention is being able to tell the health of the Puteh from the consistency of its faeces.

That brings us around to the same moot point about whether the diet is suitable for a competition bird or for a healthy bird.

My essay was not about diet for competition songbirds/Puteh. Its about the general health and well-being of the bird.


Yin Yang of Puteh Diet

The suggestion of a balanced diet as advocated by the old timers is actually based on the balance of the Yin and Yang of a Puteh's (or any animal for that matter) well-being.

Yin Yang is in fact an application which is suitable for a human being and not quite for an animal. There is no documented evidence of any Chinese medical study on the Yin Yang of a bird's health, much less of any other animal.

Instead what we do have is the application of the balance of Yin and Yang per se.

Thus, if we apply this to a bird, how would we know whether the bird's health is balanced? The old timers then conclude the following:

1) Is the bird lively and singing - if yes, its ok.
2) Are the faeces wet or firm? - If wet, there is too much Yin, if dry then there is too much Yang
3) If dry, is the bird still singing and does it appear to be hyperactive? If yes, it confirms that it is much too heaty and hence the bird might 'burn out' before the competition.
4) If wet, is the bird still singing but appear to be less lively? If yes, it confirms that its much too cool and might not perform at its peak when its competition time.
5) Thus the birdkeeper is then exhorted to try and balance the diet such that it results in firm faeces and not wet or dry.

Consequently you would then note that the 'good' performers (not necessarily only the winners) in a competiton will have firm faeces. Correct? Yes, indeed.

Then ask yourself this question, has any old timer bothered with the possibility that the Yin Yang of the Puteh is quite different from that of a human. In the case of a Puteh or any bird, the human equivalent of Yin Yang cannot be applied. In its natural state, the Puteh is more Yin than Yang. That is mother nature. We cannot say that it is wrong. Its just that way.

The same can be said of Eagles or Owls or Herons, all of which are Yang birds. Does that mean they are unhealthy? Hey, you can't even get an Eagle to eat lettuce! Similarly you cannot force a Puteh to eat meat.

The balance of Yin Yang for other living beings are just not the same as for us, humans. This is in fact supported by Western science. Humans need a fine balance of Yin Yang - we are after all omnivores (meat and non-meat eaters). A dog is a Yang animal - it is a carnivore. A cow is a Yin animal - its a herbivore.

So what then is a Puteh, is it Yin or Yang? Answer: It is more Yin than Yang, judging by its natural diet.

If you adhere to its natural diet regime, you will have a normal, healthy and happy Puteh.

However, if you wish to bring it to competition 'standard', you would need to tweak its Yin Yang by offering it less Yin food. It will heat or fire up the little fellow - hence we have the saying 'api' or in Cantonese "Foh". (But you can't tweak too much Yang, or else it will burn out.)

What happens then of course, would be a change in the consistency of its faeces - it becomes less wet and more firm ! Then what does that look like ? It looks exactly like human faeces - firm but not wet nor hard and dry; as in the case of a healthy human.

Thus, as I said the old timers tend to equate the Puteh faeces to the human. If it is firm, the Puteh is in excellent health and has 'api'. Yes, not just 'api', it has MORE 'api' than a normal healthy Puteh.

What remains is the moral question - are you doing your Puteh justice by tweaking its Yin Yang balance such that you get what YOU want and not what the PUTEH needs.

Its really a matter of personal preference, but I wish to add that when we keep a bird, its life is in our hands. And the truth of it, is that we never own the bird. If we do own it, try opening the cage - see what happens - the little fella will scoot off soonest possible. I believe then we should try our best to take care of it by applying the natural approach as opposed to tweaking nature to suit us.

I am not an advocate of Western values but neither would I discard their ideas especially if they are consistent with our Oriental values; and in this case it happens to concur - the balance of the Puteh's diet should be according to its particular nature of Yin Yang and not according to ours, unless you wish to 'fire up' the little fellow for competition sake.

In actual fact, if you follow the natural dietary regime, you will still have a Puteh which is in top form, but not in the same category as a competition Puteh 'api'.

Chinese/Oriental Birdkeeping

Birdkeeping was never intended to be competitive when it first began back in mainland China. It was very much a past time enjoyed by the aristocrats and uppercrust of Chinese society. Songbird competition never existed till much later when birdkeeping associations were formed in Guangzhou and Hong Kong in the 1920s or 1930s - cannot remember now.

Prior to that, it was an art and very much an excuse for gathering in the teahouse to while away the time, discussing, admiring the birds, their songs and more importantly, the craftsmanship of the cages and its accessories.

Now, sadly that is forgotten and most old timers now are more concerned about their birds being a winner or being a first among equals.

In my own view, which not many would care to agree, that is not quite the objective of birdkeeping. When I used to keep canaries, I did not bother to keep such varieties as the Gloucester, Scots etc. These are grosteque genetic deformities and does not represent the true canary. It may be considered a fine and fair sport by the Westerners, but I certainly don't subscribe to that sort of thinking.

Although I may wish to advocate a return to the true art of birdkeeping, its much too late for that. Now, the hobby has been seriously tainted by money viz. a winning Puteh/Jambul/Merbok etc commands a high value.

What I can do is to provide basic advice to Puteh owners whose objective is to simply enjoy the company of the Puteh for its lively nature, its song and if affordable - the craftsmanship of a beautiful cage. And sadly I cannot afford a mastercraftman's bird cage.


warmest regards,
Sam